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Why are my Paphs growing tall and leggy?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by John Marvin (Joe Jo), Jun 1, 2015.

  1. John Marvin (Joe Jo)

    John Marvin (Joe Jo) Member

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    Last year June 2014 I bought 5 Paphs online from Carter & Holmes Orchids which are supposed to bloom in 12 to 18 months, one Paph died since. This is my first time growing Paphs and I would like to know why they are growing upwards with up to 16 small skinny leafs, I know that isn't right, also they are growing reddish-brown little knobs in the crown of each leaf. Can anybody tell me what the problem is?

    Here are some photos when I first got them last year in 2.5 inch pots, the last 2 photos are what they look like today in 4 inch pots after repotting.
    Snapshot_20140804_1.JPG My 5 Paphs.JPG My 4 Paphs (2).JPG My 4 Paphs.JPG
     

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  2. Ray

    Ray Orchid Iconoclast Supporting Member

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    Insufficient light? Excessive use of hormone stimulants?
     
  3. DPfarr

    DPfarr Well-Known Member

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    Light was my guess too. I've seen Paphs in people's homes growing in the dark that looked similar. Not as leggy, but similar.
     
  4. John Marvin (Joe Jo)

    John Marvin (Joe Jo) Member

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    I grow the Paphs by a west window under a 4 foot shop light with two 40 watt bulbs. I don't use hormone stimulants, I feed them twice a month with 20-20-20 orchid food. Thanks for your response Ray!
     
  5. John Marvin (Joe Jo)

    John Marvin (Joe Jo) Member

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    Actually I thought I was giving them to much light and that the plants where reaching for the light, please read my reply to Ray of how I grow them. Thanks DPfarr!
     
  6. Ray

    Ray Orchid Iconoclast Supporting Member

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    Joe:
    1) how far are the bulbs from the plants?
    2) how large of an area are you trying to illuminate?
    3) how old are the bulbs?

    40 watt shop light bulbs, when new, only put out about 40 lumens/watt, compared to 70 for CFLs and 90 for T5HO lamps. If the bulbs have been in use for more than a year or so, their output is greatly degraded.
    The human eye is a terrible device for estimating light, as it adjusts so well - what still looks bright to us, may be of little value to the plants.
     
  7. John Marvin (Joe Jo)

    John Marvin (Joe Jo) Member

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    The bulbs are about 12-18 inches above plants on a 18" x 40" humidity tray with a few other plants. I replace the bulbs about every 3 months. Also, the tray is on a rack even with a west window (window is covered with bubble wrap to defuse direct sunlight) and gets about 2 to 3 hours afternoon sun. On another note, the Encyclia bractescence 'Exotic Perfusion x self which I purchased from you last month is doing fine with one new growth, it is supposed to be blooming size, will it bloom this year? Thanks Ray for your interest, even though I have not yet received any solutions to my question, only more questions. Maybe I should only fertilize once a month with 20-20-20 orchid food, like I said this is my first time growing Paphs after growing all kinds of orchids for the past 15 years.
     
  8. Ray

    Ray Orchid Iconoclast Supporting Member

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    Here's a little off-the-cuff calculations to potentially back me up on the low-light speculation:

    Two 40W T12 lamps will put out a combined 3200 lumens, but that's in all directions. Shop light reflectors (white, I assume) scatter the light from the back sides of the bulbs, so don't reflect it all to the plants.

    I measured the light intensity of a 2' T5HO bulb (2160 lumens) in a fixture with a specular aluminum reflector made specifically to direct the "back light" downward, and at 12" from the bulb, I measured only 300 foot-candles. Even if we simply applied the initial lumens ratio, you're still only looking at about 450 f-c at the plants.

    Having said that, the application of a lot of nitrogen can cause legginess, too, so maybe it's a combination of both? How much of the fertilizer do you use per gallon?
     
  9. John Marvin (Joe Jo)

    John Marvin (Joe Jo) Member

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    Ray do you have the T 12 lamps in stock and what's the price? If I can afford them I might consider buying some. Today I added another shop light 2 feet apart from each other and also raised the lights up to 36" above the plants and placed the orchid rack right in front of the west window, at 4:00 pm when the sun came though the window it looked almost like way to much light, so I don't know, I will have to work with it. Ray, this is also my first time growing orchids indoors, I used to live in Charleston, SC where I grew all my orchids outside most of the year and only put them in the greenhouse for a month or two if the temp. got below 50 degrees, I never had to worry about light, temperature or humidity, all I had to do was water and feed them. Since I moved to Phoenix, AZ two years ago I have been struggling growing orchids because it is to hot and dry to grow them outside with basically zero percent humidity and it is a real challenge to grow them inside. Even my Phalaenopsis are getting very tall and growing up to 12 leafs with lots of air roots, they used to bloom 2, sometimes 3 times a year, now they are not blooming at all. I use half strength per gallon, never had any problem with any of my orchids using 20-20-20 so I don't know what is wrong.
     
  10. Ray

    Ray Orchid Iconoclast Supporting Member

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    I don't stock lights, but I resell Hydrofarm products at a discount from their suggested retail prices. Check their website and let me know by email if there's anything of interest.

    Moving the lights 36" above the plants cuts the light intensity significantly. It's an inverse-square reduction - twice the distance equals 1/4 the intensity, 3x = 1/9.

    "Half strength" tells me nothing about your fertilizer usage. Half an ounce, half a tablespoon, what? How much per gallon? (I really doubt it's a fertilizer issue, by the way.)
     
  11. John Marvin (Joe Jo)

    John Marvin (Joe Jo) Member

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    OK Ray I see what you mean about the lights, so I will lower the light to around 6" to 8" above the plants. I use I/2 tablespoon of fertilizer per gallon of water as recommended on the label. This whole thing about trying to grow orchids here in the Arizona desert is really getting out off hand and not much fun any more, it is costing me way to much money and I feel like I am going to work every day for nothing. It's just not a hobby fun anymore! Thanks again Ray
     
  12. naoki

    naoki Well-Known Member

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    According to Ray's calculation: Fertilizer TDS Calculator - First Rays LLC

    1/2 TBS / gallon of 20-20-20 is like 400ppmN. That is rather extremely high. I'm a bit surprised that Paphs can handle it.

    I'm also growing in the practically desert (but not hot). I killed all of my collection when I moved up here about 12 years ago due to low humidity. Now I can maintain 60-90% RH with grow tents (fairly cheap), and I can grow orchids again.
     
  13. John Marvin (Joe Jo)

    John Marvin (Joe Jo) Member

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    Two years ago I started to grow orchids again and found out the hard way about humidity and I also killed them all, I was going to quit growing orchids but a year later I started to grow them again, I guess I am a Orchaholic and can't quit. I used to boil water every morning just to keep the humidity up, last week I bought 2 humidifiers for the 40 orchids I have collected and now have 50-100% RH, so let's see what that does for the Paphs, because I really don't think it has anything to do with light. I will also cut back on the fertilizer strength to 1/4 and feed only once a month. Thanks for your input!
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015